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Paul Daugherty
Enquirer columnist files news and observations

Paul Daugherty
Paul Daugherty has been an Enquirer sports columnist since 1994 and has been chronicling Cincinnati sports since 1988. He has covered almost every major sporting event in America, as well as five Summer Olympics. Along the way, he has been named one of the country's top-5 sports columnists four times, and Ohio columnist of the year on seven different occasions. Last year, he was voted 2nd-best sports columnist in the country, by the Associated Press Sports Editors.

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Saturday, May 03, 2008

Adam Dunn

Wrote for Sunday's paper what the Reds should do to get off the schneid. Among the suggestions was to deal A. Dunn... obvious move, but maybe not for the obvious reasons. The big one is...

They can't afford him.

If you're paying a guy 13-mil in Cincinnati, he has to do more than hit lots of home runs. Dunn is a 1-tool guy. Whether he doesnt work at the rest of his game or simply can't be any better than he is, is great stuff to debate. But it comes back to money.

We always wanted more from Dunn. I'm starting to think the expectations were a little unfair. I know, I know: He doesnt always run hard, he's dangerous in LF, he's not a model for the young guys etc.

But maybe Dunn just is who he is. Seven years into it, what you see is what you get, a very large man who hits lots of baseballs a very long way. An average of 40 homers, 100 runs and close to 100 rbi isnt the worst thing in the world to have on your team.

If you're Boston or the Bronx, you can afford a 13-mil DH. Given Dunn's production, in Boston or NY, you see him as very important to the whole. In Cincinnati, and in the National League, he's simply not worth the investment.

That said, if Dunn stays (and my inside peeps tell me anything the Reds get for Dunn will be less than what you'd expect, maybe shockingly so), you bat him 2nd, where he'll see more fastballs, has some protection and is comfortable hitting.

Agree or disagree?


48 Comments:

at 11:18 AM Blogger The Big O said...

Hit the nail right on the head Doc... he's definitely more suited for the 2 hole or 7 spot than where he is at 5.
I think Reds fans assume that Dunn will draw top-notch talent in a trade, but that's just not the case - other teams don't view him as highly as we do, and many AL teams are already set at DH.
He definitely has been the scapegoat for our losing here, but he's a decent ballplayer. People in this town are still enamored with Pete Rose, and Dunn really comes off as the antithesis of Pete, which may be why there's so much vitriol for him in Cincy.

 
at 12:02 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Agree with your position except >> I couldn't be suprised about little his worth on the open market. I'd just be suprised if anyone actually wanted him.
Take whatever you can get.
Somehow it didn't get much press when 4-5 games ago, his "throw" to the infield went sideways - kinda like Mayor Mark on opening day, only worse!
JDB

 
at 12:37 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

It would be a great trade debate if he were hitting .278 with 9 HR and 28 RBI's right now.....But, hes not. He is a career . 248 hitter with a career BA in the .220's with runners in scoring position.You cant pay a guy to be a run producer with that track record.

 
at 12:55 PM Blogger Cheviot Sports Authority said...

Paul,
You are not going to believe this, but I agree with you. Dunn has got to go and he is not going to bring very much in return. Of course, I have said that for a long, long time. Perhaps you are finally starting to understand baseball (just kidding, don't get upset). As for batting him second, I am not so sure about that. He would theoretically get some protection but he still strikes out way to much to bat second on my team. He is for sure nothing but a luxury for a team who has others who can be counted on to drive in important runs. He would bat 7 or 8 on my team. That is if I were stuck with him.
St CSA

 
at 1:12 PM Blogger Swatch said...

I absolutely agree that we should sit him at #2. I like what showtime said about maybe dropping him to 7 or even 8 for more intentional walks, but then you risk damaging his confidence. If you could sell it to him that this is where he 'wants' to be, then it would work, otherwise, you'll likely hurt his production just from lack of confidence. On the subject of dealing him, I think that we missed that train about 3 or 4 years ago...and don't get me wrong, I think 3 or 4 years ago we shouldn't have traded him. It's an excellent example of hindsight is 20-20.

 
at 2:35 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I agree you pretty much got to trade him for whatever you can get, with focus on a team willing to take all the salary for the remainder of the year. My guess is any team trading will know they are in the position of strength and ask the Reds to eat part of what is left.

Dunn seems like a great guy, but as you said he is the player now that he will always be, and when your on a budget you can't pay that kind of money for RBI that aren't meaningful.

Off topic but I thought you might find this interesting:
http://www.msnsportsnet.com/page.cfm?story=12730&cat=exclusives

WVU has signed Huggy to a 11 year extension, ironic that they got him locked up for a decade and they aren't raising seat licenses, UC dumped him and have to triple or more seat licenses just to make up lost revenue. Good old Nancy she always knew what was best for the University.

 
at 3:24 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I gave up on Dunn a long time ago. There is more to baseball than hitting home runs. I think he strikes out too much, hurts the Reds as a fielder, and makes too much money for whatever he does. I say trade him to the American League if you can. He seems to be a good guy and good team mate.

The Reds are boring this year. I can not watch a whole game without falling asleep or changing channels and certainly wouldn't waste my money paying for a ticket to watch paint dry on a wall.

 
at 6:23 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The beauty about hitting is that it's one of the last (if not the last) skills to be affected by age. I've long suspected the Reds couldn't get anything decent for him but as the season goes on there may be a team feeling they're close to contention.
The guy is mad for the American league.

 
at 8:23 PM Blogger Mark said...

Agree, for the most part. For a team with an already potent offense, Dunn would be a _great_ #8 hitter, 9 in the AL.

At least we get the occasional walk from Dunn. We're getting nothing from Griffey. Griffey is the one to trade. For anything.

 
at 8:49 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dunn needs to stay he will be alright in the long run. Having said that this Reds team is the worst I have ever seen. Dusty Baker is the Big name but he is beyond pathetic. They run him outta Chicago, he's just there for a paycheck. This is BS Patterson signing is just as bad. Where's Jay Bruce? Where's Homer? This team will not win 70 games this year. I will not spend good $$$ to see this crap. And I usually go to 10 games a year, not this year. REDS FAN 74

 
at 9:22 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

Been sayin this for years. Can't build around a home run hitter who can't even hit .250. Anybody who hits below that is known as a Rally Killer.

The person who's gonna be most surprised by Dunn's lack of worth on the open market is none other than Dunn. He's gonna go from sacred cow to just plain cow. I'd love to see him in Philly or New York, where fans express their feelings a lot louder than polite conservative Cincy.

Krivsky made a huge mistake resigning him. I wanted him gone, even when he finished up strong at the end of last year. He's too streaky a hitter. Period. 'course, Krivsky made a ton of mistakes, as this team's record and his current job status more than prove.

The pitching has been half way decent. Baker's love of vets and unwillingness to play the best nine, no matter what, has made his managing skills look worst than Boone and Knight. I truly believe Narron would have gotten more out of this team than Dusty, and McKanin would have had the best combos on the field, no matter what.

Baker...another bad retread experience. Ugh!!

 
at 10:16 PM Blogger People Eating Tasty Animals said...

Another Reds season over by Mother's Day. Thank Gawd for MLB Extra Innings to good baseball can still be seen with a little channel surfing.

As for Dunn's worth, I both agree and disagree. I agree that he will bring precious little in terms of a trade in late June. But then this offseason he will turn around and sign a $100+ million free agent contract.

 
at 12:00 AM Blogger robby said...

I agree and Dunn will be gone.(and not much will be gotten in return) But lost in this discussion is the profound dysfunction of this organization that led to the decsion to keep Dunn around for this year. Seriously, as you point out everyone knows what a team gets from Dunn. The Reds knew that last year when the decision was made to pick up the option on his contract.

The Reds haven't had a winning record with Dunn in left field yet. Why did they make the decision to invest $13 million dollars again? Because ownership is delusional and unable to create a plan and stick with it.

I was told last year Dunn's option would not be picked up, but the Reds went a month or so with Pete at the helm playing pretty inspired baseball. More to the point Dunn himself acutally played with a little more bounce in his step convincing Bob C. to hang on for another year.

Develop a plan and stick with it.

One final point. I'm guessing Dunn will not be a 40 homer - 100 rbi guy this season. Dusty Baker has not had a positive impact on Dunn. I look for Dunn to have his worse season as a Red. (half a season)

 
at 7:27 AM Blogger Jeff said...

I would trade him and Griffey to anyone for a warm jug of gatorade. You would help the team more. He is this generation's Rob Deer.

 
at 7:57 AM Blogger anti-media said...

Give him away if you must,he is a cancer to the team !! He is dumb,lazy,soft,fat and selfish, besides being a huge negative in the clubhouse !! This team will get better when he and Griffless go,bring Bruce up now.BTW our TV guys are the worst in MLB !!!

 
at 8:30 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

It is time to be unequivocal about Dunn and Griffey. The former is just bad and the latter is washed up. Neither does anything to help the team, and they make this group so incredibly boring it is hard to watch. Although there would be no power production, which we're not getting anyway, the outfield for this year would be bette with Freel, Hopper, and Hairston. And making this comment, it shows to what depths this team has fallen.

 
at 10:28 AM Blogger Another losing season said...

Is there a price point where Dunn becomes tolerable as a starter?

I don't think so. In fact, if he was making the league minimum, I don't think fans opinion would be any different. He still needs to sit and/or be traded.

Fan loyalty, acceptance and promotion is always production based, not salary based.

 
at 10:42 AM Blogger oldtimer said...

Bat Dunn second???

That's a laugh!

Instead of striking out with runners on, he can get thrown out blazing from first to second on the next guy's single.

Lifetime .240 hitters don't bat sedond. Ever. Except on really bad teams. It's Baseball 101. Add no speed on top of that and you got worthless..err, I mean...Dunn.

As is the season.

Oh well there's alway the Bungles to look forward to.

Unbelievable.

Cincinnati: The Black Hole of Sports.

 
at 11:18 AM Blogger bodacio said...

"Dunn needs to stay he will be alright in the long run."

I'm not sure if I could disagree more...ever...in my entire life.

 
at 1:03 PM Blogger russ said...

Paul, I agree with you 90% of the time, but you always swing and miss on this topic. You don't like the guy. I understand, we all have to work with/for/near someone that we don't like. But the point is if he did everything that you want him to do he would make $20-25M. The biggest problem is that the Reds hit him too far back in the lineup to take advantage of his best asset, his OBP. Hit Dunn 3 and Griffey 4. How many more pitches will Griffey see with a guy who gets on base 4 out of 10 trips to the plate batting in front of him?

Besides, what does $13M really buy you? We've seen money thrown at problem areas before and the results are dead money contracts like Milton and Stanton.

 
at 2:33 PM Blogger Unknown said...

If he isn't worth 13 million to others, then he isn't worth that to us either.

Is there a stat for important homers versus non-important? Homers when you're losing or winning by 4 or more seem less significant than those in which the game is closer.

 
at 3:09 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

NO lineup is better with Freel in it.

None.

A leadoff guy who runs the bases like an idot, assuming he manages to get on.

Freel is there to entertain dimwitted fans, so why not just let him wear the Gapper costume.

And I say keep Dunn just because he annoys Marty so much.

 
at 5:01 PM Blogger Cheviot Sports Authority said...

QUOTE:
"Freel is there to entertain dimwitted fans, so why not just let him wear the Gapper costume."

PERFECT OBSERVATION!
ST CSA

 
at 5:57 PM Blogger Unknown said...

We couldn't get anything in return for the Dunner last year when his stats were much better, so of course it's no surprise that you can't get any value for him now. I'd doubt that he will be moved before the end of the season. Who would want to take on that much salary for such pitiful production. I'll give him credit for being a gamer, but he's not a leader and doesn't have the kind of locker room presence a young team needs.

 
at 6:56 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The Reds have been Bengalized....

 
at 8:19 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Yeah, Dunn gets lots of walks & therefore his OBP is good.
Opposing pitcher is thinking >> hmm, this guy can hit homeruns but he's slower than Grandpa and he can't slide?? Hell yes, I walk him!

 
at 8:20 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

How long is average going to be tolerated in this area? It truly seems that there is little to no commitment to improve either with the Red Jokes or the Bungles. They are the 'Mediocre Twosome' and it will only cease when people stop blindly following the Reds parade and stop getting lost in the Bungles WhoDey chants.

Just stop supporting these very lackluster teams and they will be forced to improve.

FED UP WITH BOTH TEAMS!!

 
at 9:55 PM Blogger robby said...

It's a moot point. The Reds are not going to keep Dunn. Griffey and Dunn will be traded before the trading deadline if anyone will take them. If not, they will be allowed to walk at the end of the year.

 
at 11:46 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

get ride of Freel, Dunn, Jr, anyone else that does not want to play here. I used to think that they had no heart, they just don't have a heart to win maybe some younger kids would. Who cares who we get ride of as long as it's not pitching. Trade all of them for minor league prospects. We need people who are hungrey and cares abouth their teammeats. Heart they have, they care about themselves and their paycheck, there is no PRIDE thay they play for CINCINNATI REDS

 
at 8:08 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Doc:

Dunn's a disappointment, no question. But let's wait until June 15th to make that call. While I believe it's true most would be surprised at how little Dunn would bring in a trade, I think it's also the case that the deadline could make a desperate club give up more than they might otherwise have planned on. IF it turns out dumping Dunn is the way to go.

But what if the Reds go 20-12 over the next 32? Or 30-22 over the next 52? Certainly not impossible - that gets them to .500 in a junk division before or at the all star break. In other words, alive. On that team, Dunn makes a lot of sense hitting 5th or 6th. He is, after all, a guy who hits 40 HR and knocks in 100 runs every year. Those guys aren't that common. Just saying: The picture might be different at the deadline.

Some non-Dunn-related ideas for improvement.

 
at 9:04 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I disagree Paul.

Adam Dunn is so bad he should be on the bench. I don't care if he is getting paid 100million this year - he doesn't deserve to be on a field.

How about the other night when he gave up that inside the park homerun - he threw the ball behind himself. He threw the ball behind himself! He never hits in the clutch.

Adam Dunn has never thrown anyone out anywhere.

There is no reason for him to be on the field.

Again, just because we pay him doesn't mean we have to play him.

He is just so bad. He is a 7 year shadow on this team. He is so bad in left field.

That's about it.

 
at 9:06 AM Blogger ewad said...

One thing that Ryan Freel does is play his guts out.
You can rip him for things, but not for NOT giving his all.
Went to all 3 games this weekend, he was a bright spot in a miserable weekend of Deads baseball.

 
at 10:34 AM Blogger JackBlueAsh said...

Ryan Freel is a marginal player with very little talent.. Quit searching for good with this team that has lost seven plus years in a row..

I want hustle and talent

many highschool and college players have hustle..can they play in the majors..NO

 
at 10:53 AM Blogger Unknown said...

Batting order ain't what's wrong with this team. After this last series with the Braves, I'm wondering if the players haven't already given up on the season.

If that's true, they need to rid themselves of whomever the "leaders of mediocrity and melaise" might be.

 
at 11:18 AM Blogger Dan said...

Lots to respond to, but I think this is the main thing for me:

Dunn is NOT one-dimensional. One dimensional is Dave Kingman.

Kingman - career OBP .302 (league avg. .329)

Dunn - career OBP .380 (league avg. .343)

Dunn is extremely good at two VERY important things -- 1) hitting HR's and 2) getting on base (a.k.a. not making outs).

Yes, his career batting average is low (.248). Yes, he strikes out too much. Yes, his defense is bad and sometimes appears lackadaisical.

But let's appreciate what he's good at for once.

Oh... and since one of the main things he's good at is getting on base, I agree that batting him 2nd isn't a crazy idea.

I don't know whether the best move is extending him, trading him, or just letting him walk. Depends what his trade value is I guess -- I have no clue about that.

But if he goes, we will miss his power and his on-base abilities a lot.

Let's appreciate what he does do well for now...

Where does all the wrath come from? It's pretty amazing. If all you read was blogs, you'd think Freel is 10 times the player Dunn is, which is insane.

 
at 11:41 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I am not sure I have ever cared less about the Cincinnati Reds. They have exactly zero chance of deriving a single dime from me this season. I would not go with free tickets.

 
at 11:43 AM Blogger Prince said...

Can't bat Dunn 2nd. If you do, you're effectively parking your leadoff guy on first base if he gets on (if he steals, they pitch around Dunn). Dunn should be down in the lineup, but he's too valuable during his hot streaks to let him go...re-sign him for $5 million next year.

I am a huge Griffey supporter and his career speaks for itself, but is he the best guy for the job right now? I don't think he makes a very strong argument. Unfortunately, because of politics, there's about a 0% chance he'll become a role-player to allow Jay Bruce to step in.

LINEUP:
Freel
Keppinger
Votto/Hatteberg
Phillips
Griffey
Encarnacion
Dunn
Bako/Ross/Valentin

 
at 12:05 PM Blogger Another losing season said...

Quote... "But what if the Reds go 20-12 over the next 32? Or 30-22 over the next 52? Certainly not impossible"

Yes, it is impossible. Look at their schedule. Maybe if they played the Nationals thirty straight games but I still would doubt it. This team could easily be twenty games under .500 by the end of June. They have a murderous June schedule including the Braves (end of May), Philadelphia, St. Louis, Boston, Yankees, Cleveland. They might only win fifteen games between now and then.

This is going to get uglier before it gets better.

 
at 12:20 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

My question is why do you care about the Reda at all?

They've become the Milwaukee Brewers - nobody knows or cares about them.

 
at 12:39 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

The similarities between Adam Dunn and Dave Kingman are striking (forgive the pun). Kingman's career BA was .236, Dunn's is .248 and sure to decline over the next few years. Career AB's per HR hit, Kingman 15.1, Dunn 14.3. AB's per strike out, Kingman 3.7, Dunn 3.1. AB's per walk, Kingman 10, Dunn 5. Dunn scores more runs than Kingman because of the walks, but Kingman has more RBI per AB than Dunn, .18 to .16, so Kingman was more of a clutch hitter. Kingman played for 8 different teams in his MLB career and retired at 35. I think Dunn will follow in his footsteps. Lou E.

 
at 1:52 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

After falling out of the race again by May 1, it's time to blow it all up and start over. No way the Reds keep Junior and Dunn next season anyway. They could easily finish 5th without them. Just like they do now.

 
at 2:37 PM Blogger Cheviot Sports Authority said...

OK, one more time. If you want walks, sign a midget. I hear they work for less money than Adam Dunn and they cover more ground in the outfield.
ST CSA

 
at 3:11 PM Blogger Dan said...

Anonymous 12:39 - Two players who have career OBP of .302 and .380 are NOT SIMILAR!!

 
at 3:22 PM Blogger BShooner said...

The Donkey has to go. Dunn is the most impatient hitter I've seen in recent memory...the ball flying out of his hand the other day reminded me of the worst fielding of the CRC co-ed recreational softball league. He has no hustle, and no signs of improvement. But if I were making his kind of money-I'd be content to worry about UFC, fishing, and hopefully the occasional HR. He is the definition of the lazy, content, over-paid baseball player. He is the anti-Pete Rose...he is the anti-Joey Votto. This team will have no chemistry as long as he and Griffey are allowed to simply 'do what they do'. Addition by subtraction IMO.

 
at 7:28 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Kingman could also pitch, so he had that going for him.

 
at 9:02 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Dunn is the most impatient hitter I've seen in recent memory

Might want to get your brain checked. He just about leads the NL in walks.

 
at 1:40 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

How about we trade Adam Dunn for a "Garbage Burger" from Max and Ermas for each person in the Cincinnati Area. Thats all he's given us, garbage disguised as baseball.

 
at 2:48 PM Blogger Mr. Rawlings said...

It is incredible to even think about batting Dunn 2nd in the line up. I heard you mention this and about drove off the road a few days ago. Forget the Fast Ball theory and that #3 will see better pitches etc.
Adam Dunn is probably more suited to sing soprano in the metropolitan opera than bat 2nd!
These are 6 reasons why Dunn is best suited to bat 6 or #7 :
1.) # 2 hitter Has to be a CONTACT hitter..Dunn is any thing but!! His average of .230 speaks for itself.He rarely puts the ball into play and forces pressure on the defense.
2.) #2 hitter has to be aggressive..Dunn is complacent..more willing to take a walk than get be an agressive hitter.
3. He strikes out entirely too much..look at his stats..not the OB%
4. He cannot hit to the opposite field or go simply go with the pitch..he want to pull the ball.
5. If you bat him #2..the eternal theory of having SPEED at the top of the line up certainly has been betrayed..at 6'6-275..He's more suited for a tight end! If he was the lead runner on base and Phillips was behind him..it would be like following a double tandem semi truck up a hill!!
6. He can't bunt,( a tool #2 has to possess ) a weapon a #2 hitter is called upon to do sometimes and thereby sacrifice the lead #1 batter into scoring position..if he could he would be bunting for hits..he has no bat control.
Bottom line as you said..he has but ONE tool..not enough reason to compromise the entire offense and top one third of batting order.
Six major reasons why Dunn doesn't bat #2!!..Your'e right he is best suited as a DH in the American League.
The only more insane idea was to bat him #1 like Bob Boone did!!

 
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