Georgia, Baylor and UC
DC -- We got 2 glimpses here of what massive rebuilding is like, and how long it takes. Dennis Felton and Scott Drew were on the job 5 years before each got his team into the NCAA Tournament. At UGA, Felton came in after academic fraud resulted in sanctions that stripped the Bulldogs bare. "Ground zero,'' school AD Damon Evans called it Wednesday. At one point, Felton's team included 11 walk-ons.
Drew's situation at Baylor might have been worse. After Carlton Dotson murdered his teammate Patrick Dennehy, then-coach Dave Bliss tried to cover it up. Few players stuck around. Transfer rules were liberalized. Drew, with exactly 1 year of college coaching experience (at Valpo, where he took over for his dad, Homer) was below ground zero. Add the fact that Baylor isnt exactly UCLA. Stud recruits don't dream of playing in Waco, TX.
Point is, massive rebuilding doesnt happen overnight, even in basketball. You make inroads year to year, until you get the program back on its feet. The first few years, improvement is what matters.
UC improved, lousy finish and all. Mick Cronin's situation 2 years ago was comparable to Felton's and Drew's. As long as the upward trend continues, patience is the only realistic option. There's a reason Cronin's contract is 6 years.
posted by Paul Daugherty at 7:44 AM
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Post a Comment*Great comparison there Paul, I completely agree. While nobody is happy with the status of the program, firing Mick at this point would not only be unfair, it would set the program back even more. He started with absolutely nothing, and had no time to bring anything in for even his first year. Even with Huggins, UC rarely scored players that had huge impacts as freshman. And there's a long way to go to get the program back to a point where you can grab one here or there. Even this season, Mick had Deonta, a bunch of seniors that had no business in the Big East, and a group of talented but undeveloped freshmen with minimal upperclass leadership. Rome was not built in a day (although it seemed to get torn down pretty darn quickly a couple of years ago).
Paul - You're right. When a BB program is decimated regardless of the reason it isn't rebuilt overnight as Baylor and UGA prove.
Many Bearcat fans don't really accept that point of view. Mick is on the right track and hopefully will be back.
Even with a 6 year contract tho, if MC teams lose 15 games or more each of the next two years don't see how he remains as coach.
BE is big time and dont't see fans nor AD supporting Mick unless there is much better performance.
Good luck to Mick and the Bearcats and of course Xavier in their game with Purdue.
Doc, your analysis has crystalized the situation for me. It took Baylor and Georgia five years just to get bounced in the first round of the tournament. Perhaps the same will be true for UC. I think Mick has a difficult rebuilding job and fans just don't have patience for such inconveniences. Maybe UC catches a break and it only takes 4 years under Cronin to get back to the tournament.
Another couple of great examples are K-State and West Virginia.
It took a whole year for those two programs to rebuild from a coach change. They are only just now returning to the NCAA tournament. Be patient UC and Nancy.
Paul, while I agree that Cronin should be given more time, I disagree that UC's situation was as bad as Georgia and Baylor. UC did not have to deal with NCAA sanctions, nor did they have to deal with the horror of a murder. The only thing UC had to deal with was a coach who was shown the door at the wrong time of the year, thus losing one year's worth of recruits. A bad situation, yes, but not even comparable to Georgia and Baylor.
9:54, you forget that Huggins had trouble recruiting once he became a lame duck as well. That started the downhill trend. And Kennedy didn't recruit at all as an interim coach. Cronin was forced to take leftovers when he started recruiting, and had no players of any kind of note returning. It was more than just the one season of recruits missed out on. It was, for all practical purposes, starting the program over.
Paul,
How can you say there was significant improvement this year? They won more games in the conference, true. How many of those teams that they beat would they beat now? Louisville, West Virginia, Pittsburgh, Syracuse, Villanova? I don't think so. Ended the season with 7 straight loses including home loses to DePaul and Providence and a record setting loss at UConn. Their last win was a one point home court victory over lowly S Florida.
I agree, it takes time to rebuild a program (but not six years). I really question whether or not Mick Cronin is the man for the job. The main reason he got the job in the first place was to spite Bob Huggins. He certainly did not have the qualifications to rebuild a top major college program from scratch. So far he has shown me nothing other than a penchant for making excuses. This recruiting class was supposedly a top 15 class. Well either the players were over-rated or their skills were not developed properly. In short they stunk. Either way it falls on the coach.
Most of us of course knew that they were not going to be any good for the past 2 seasons, but I did expect some improvement this year. By next year, if they do not show significant improvement and I don't see any signs that it will, this guy should be gone.
The UC basketball program is dead. It will stay dead until Zimpher is sent packing. She does not want to see a highly successful basketball program and has actually stated such. The Enquirer, believe it or not tries to keep such things out of the media.
ST CSA
Not only did Huggins get fired at the wrong time of year, Kennedy was an interim for another whole year and couldn't effectively recruit as a lame duck. Short of losses of scholarships, that's about "ground zero" as it gets.
I'm concerned about the season-end tailspin but opponents probably figured out that all they had to do was contain Deonta (the stud).
I suspect the complainers are a vociferous few devotee's of Huggins.
UC's situation is nothing like Baylor, good grief! Unfortunate situation: yes. Tragic like Baylor: no.
Mick is doing the best he can with almost no one, and in a premier conference. The school is getting what it asked for when it moved to the BE. Be patient, the team will be successful again.
Ya know, There IS another local team still in the tourny to get behind.
Doc,
Great examples of how we need to be patient of UC's rebuilding. Patience isn't easy though.
Off the subject - it looks like you won't be in town for the Boss and the E Street Band. I'm assuming your a fan, but we won't be getting any of your comments/insights...
Mark
Every contract has an escape clause, and Cronin's is probably no exception.
The only way this town gives him 6 years is with improved record year-by-year.
It won't accept 5 losings season and a final resurrection. (The SonRise is in an Easter Direction!)
CSA...with all due respect, you let your ill admiration (and obvious vendetta) towards Zimpher nullify any real argument you may have. Please...let it die. It's old and tired, let it go brother.
If you're assumptions are true, then I would expect you to apply for the job. You sure seem to know what you're talking about.
Paul:
Disagree with you on this one:
you do not rebuild in college basketball if you are an elite program...you reload.
the events of the past few years and the apologist media for Cronin have turned this into what it has become: a low to mid level BCS program.
11:38 who's the other team you're referring to?Are you talking about the group that won because they shot thirty-something FT'S TO FIVE?What a joke.I don't care who's playing that's a shame.Enjoy!
For those who arent smart enough to understand: Obviously WHAT happened at Georgia and Baylor are different than what happened at UC to cause a major rebuilding. However, the fact is all of those programs had to start from scratch. That is what Paul was comparing. I really thought that was clear, but obviously not to some...
Im sick and tired of hearing how the freshman class has been a bust. The reason it was ranked so high was because the number of recruits. However no recruit was thought to be an impact player as a freshman. The two best players were said to be McClain and Mitchell. Mitchell hasnt adjusted well (we saw that under Huggins with guys like Hicks) and McClain has been hurt all season.
Let the guys develop. UCONN missed the NIT last year, yet became a 4 seed this season. Most freshman take time to develop.
The late season slide was difficult to watch, but progress was made. The progress will continue.
Tried posting this on the post about being back in DC. For some reason it won't post there so I posted it here.
I ride Metro every day. Drive 14 miles to Park and Ride from my home in Chantilly, VA; take the bus from there to West Falls Church Metro; ride orange line to red line; get off at Union Station, then ride the Gallaudet U. shuttle bus to campus where I work. Takes me two hours one way, four hours daily.
I grew up in Ft. Thomas, raised a family in Florence, became the typical whitebread suburbanite til my career took a detour. No jobs for a deaf guy like me in Cincy, so was forced to look out of the area and found my current job in DC. Gallaudet is the only four-year university for deaf students worldwide, and I graduated from there in 1986.
Couldn't agree more that DC Metro is great. I can read, sleep, think during the commute, instead of the daily driving grind. Forget about Cincy getting a train. Public transportation in big cities are a must-have and it is what it is - it gets you around when you need to get around. What would be a new toy or amusement at first would eventually become an underused system in Cincinnati. The town is just not forward-thinking enough - look at the Banks and the ghost-town in the city after five.
Would have liked to have met you, Paul, while you were back in DC. Would have liked to have met your daughter, too. It takes one to know one.
Let's start with the fact the UC's demise was self-imposed and not from external sources. What blue chip players would want to play for a coach who is yet unproven, at best, when he has any college choice he wants? That is probably enough in itself to stop him, but he also is seeing a program rising from the ashes of destruction. Honestly, he has to be asking himself, "Is this really whom I want to play for and where I want to be for years?"
If he has done his homework, he would also have seen a team of D-1 wannabes virtually quit on our current super coach. In addition, what amazes me also is why nobody ever questions the abilities or qualifications of the assistant coaches at UC. Just like the head coach, no school in the nation is trying to steal any of them away from us. Likely, there's plenty of reasons for that.
Until the current president or current head coach leave, or even better, both of them, UC will remain impertinent and struggling.
But just remember that we love Mick and Nancy no matter what! That way we can ignore the many things that are right in front of our eyes.
Off topic here, Doc, but would you like to re-visit your March 11 blog posting about Volquez starting the year in the 'pen and Cueto in AAA?
Washington says:
Paul, I like the question: Beasley or Duncan?
Me? I want my school to actually start going after punks.
Stanley Burrell-types. You know, the kind that shoot from the lip but can't shoot?
I used to have the utmost respect for Xavier.
This year?
Cry babies who actually look at lot more MID-MAJOR than they do anything else.
Go, Egg-avier - win one more so Miller will leave and you'll shrink right back where you belong.
Wow - can you say NOT ready for prime time?
"I used to have the utmost respect for Xavier."
9:40 - I think you speak with "forked tounge". Your obvious envy of X is apparent.
Be happy you've got a Cincy team in Xavier to root for in the tourney. UC will eventually return to the national stage.
Off Topic -- But there is a wide receiver available for the Bengals -- Cedric Wilson. He should fit in with the Bengals.
Sorry Paul can't agree with you.
I don't want Mick fired wish him nothing but success but it is painful to watch these guys play and they quit on MC. Don't think there is a lot of respect for him on the team. It will get better but they won't get back to where they were. They'll become what the football was in the past .500 program with a an uptick every 3 or 4 years. Hope I am wrong.
Its amazing to see how people have refused to give Cronin a chance. A lot of it comes from Huggins lovers that are mad at the university, however people have already forgot just what Cronin has had to overcome.
He took a team that was recruited in April of 2006 and had them 8-10 in the Big East. That is extremely impressive.
Of course Louisville, West Virginia, Syrcause, Villanova and Pittsburgh are better teams then CIncinnati. UC still beat them though. That says something about coaching.
Mick has always been a strong recruiter. The recruiting at UC went WAY down when he left for Louisville. And its no surprise that he was the main recruiter at Louisville when they went the Final Four.
He also learned from two of the best coaches in the game.
Like Paul said, there is a reason he got a 6 year contract. He will at least be given the opportunity to see his first real freshman class graduate before his job is in jeapordy (three more years).
UCONN missed the NIT last year. They were a four seed this year. It takes freshman time.
No one was complaining when Eric Hicks struggled as a freshman, and he got to play in CUSA, which was MUCH MUCH easier than the Big East.
It's obavious, Huggins got UC the Big East invite, he had boosters contributing at a record pace, money was flowing in the athletic dept. With Huggins gone UC could have went with a decent coach on the verge of success but Nancy decided to go with a bargain basement contract and put the excess money towards her over ambitious building projects.
Now there is neither the large basketball gate, donors, or really anything left that resembles the successful program Huggins left.
I think UC lost site of the fact that this school is in the middle of UK, OSU, and Indiana territory. It was entirely personality driven(Huggins) once you remove him, you better have a good back up plan.
Let's say, Paul, that you have a returning team that will be 5 players: 2 sophomore, 2 juniors, 1 senior. Everyone knows the coach is recruiting Mr 5 Star who will probably be one year and gone.
Who does that impact? Really, it has an effect only on the 1 senior, if it's his place that gets replaced. If it's any of the others, they have another year or more of eligibilty after Mr 5 Star is in the NBA.
However, shouldn't any coach always field his best players? It shouldn't matter if they are seniors or not. You play the best team. Therefore, any good freshman entering a team will knock out someone.
Ideally, with 13 scholarships a team would have 3 or 4 players from each class all the time, and none of them should expect that they're a lock for their spot.
What big time coach was going to come to UC based on the situation they were. They were hiring in March and one player was returning the next season.
UCs only option was to find an up and coming coach at a mid major. They will find one that will stay at UC for the rest of his career if he is successful...
Paul-the supporters of Nancy Z. are sitting at home contemplating the increased academic value of their UC diploma while the Mouseketeers are about to dance with Huggy Bear in the Sweet 16. I think Huggs has moved on-wow he even got past the second round. Also, could not help but notice K-State in the dance for the first time in 20 years. Any real fan of what UC B-Ball was about through Huggins era is enjoying his win tonight. For all the fans that have gone negative on the man that did much to improve UC's athletic presence over 16 years, I say "Enjoy your rebuilding and 3/4 full stands because it will be a long time before you see any real excitement in 5/3rd!" Viva La Huggs!
8:01 , I didn't "go negative" on Huggy - always was - he's an egotistical, Excellent B-Ball coach who drinks too much.
Other than that, hope he goes all the way, really!
940, get real. Top 10 rpi, ALL YEAR LONG, BEST non conf schedule this year, team first philosophy, 6 players avg double digit scoring, #3 seed. If you had any respect for them in the past you'd have it now.
Forked tongue is definitely an accurate assessment here. I guess they cried they're way all the way to the sweet 16. What's your definition of prime time? Getting bumped from the first round of the CBI?
you do not rebuild in college basketball if you are an elite program...you reload.
And what on earth does this have to do with UC?
They haven't been "elite" in over 40 years.
"Huggins was run out at Cincinnati because they were tired of winning". The most accurate quote on a basketball telecast all season. I forget who said it though.
Why is it again that we had to replace Bob Huggins? Why did we have to do it how and when we did it?
Why was it that Andy Kennedy couldn't stay on here with at least some semblance of a program? And why again do we now have to be a training program for under qualified coaches? Just one more time tell me how this team improved over last season and why I should believe that next season will be any better?
This program is not getting any better and will not get any better under the current leadership. It takes better players to build a better team. Not so easy to recruit for a CBI loser as it is for a couple of sweet sixteen teams, is it?
ST CSA
"What big time coach was going to come to UC based on the situation they were. They were hiring in March and one player was returning the next season."
They had all year if they knew that they werent gunna have a long term deal with Andy Kennedy. Plus UC is the one who let Huggins go at the wrong time of year. If they knew he was gunna get pushed out they should have timed it right.
Cronin was never successful recruiting except when he was recruiting for a big time coach.
I was a huge UC basketball fan, now I can't stomach to watch it. Thankfully I can watch Huggins WV team and Xavier play some quality ball.
I think UC is on the right track. With Mike Williams this year they might have been able to make the tourney if not the NIT, although I must admit, trying to watch them score was like getting teeth pulled. I think Mick's motivating through the press may have backfired on him though - basically telling the juco's thanks for helping us out, instead of telling them they had the talent to compete (whether it was true or not)
For those of you that bash NZ for dismissing Huggins - I don't blame her for getting rid of him, he was caught drunk driving (and they said it wasn't the first time), and frankly were you all happy with the one and done's and 2nd round exits? I myself thought that if they were an ELITE program we should expect them to compete for a National Championship every year, which I think has only been true K-mart's last year. I personally value my degree a little more than to be associated with Thugs as well.
I do however agree that she went about things the wrong way and has set back the program for probably 4-5 years (we're in year 4 next year). They look like they have some promise next year, give Mick and the true freshman players a chance. He took Murray State to the Tourney after a short time there and almost beat UC a few years ago.
Paul,
You may want to check on your comrade Bill Koch. His sort of a blog hasn't budged in about 24 hours. Hope he's OK!
One and done in the NCAA is waaay better than none and done.
At 4:52 Anonymous said:
"I think UC is on the right track. With Mike Williams this year they might have been able to make the tourney if not the NIT..."
Is that so? Did you actually watch him play at Texas? If you did, then you would realize that he wasn't exactly lighting up the scoreboard there. Of course, you probably have given heart to the rhetoric of Super Coach. You know, the one who told us last year how much better we would be if only Adam H. were eligible. We got a chance this year to see just what an impact Adam H., the layup specialist, had on this team. We can only hope that Mike Williams is as good next season as Super Coach has told us he will be.
Also, it was very disconcerting to see this group of very, very average players essentially quit on Mick. How can any real confidence be placed in a coach that even these D-1 wannabes did not respect? Is there any reason to believe that REAL players will? And what does that lead to in the future?
I'll be plenty willing to accept criticism for my dim view of the current coaching staff and team if things turn out to be positive. In fact, I hope that I've got it all wrong, but I doubt it.
Sincerely,
President of the 'We Love Mick No Matter What Fan Club'
btw for those that do not think the firing of Huggins has hurt UC, check out this storie on the "Flutie Effect"
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080323/ap_on_re_us/flutie_effect
Paul, did you really think this through when you posted it? Georgia went 4-12 in the league this year. Is that really your example of a success story? That is meant as my light at the end of the tunnel? If Georgia does not go on an improbable run in the SEC tourney, not only do they not make the show, Felton probably gets canned.
"One and done in the NCAA is waaay better than none and done"
- do you truly believe this? I guess we live in a world where Duke, UNC, Kansas, and UCLA are the only teams that can ever win the National Championship. Sure there are a few different teams every year (OSU, FLA, Memphis, Texas, G-town) but for the most part, those teams are always up there. I would like UC to be a dominant team in that list without thugs and a drunk coach and be proud to be a UC grad.
I don't know if Mick's the guy, but you haven't really given him much of a chance have you? Vaughn made 1st team Big East, he's an out of HS recruit, a Mick Cronin recruit. Most of the JUCO players were award winners in their respective leagues. Perhaps Mick can recruit if given time. Blame NZ AND Huggins for the struggles of the team, not the coach.
For the other post - no I didn't watch Mike Williams play at Texas, I'm basing my opinion solely on media reports - but I do know he was an All-American out of H.S., they usually can play. (28p/16r/7b as a senior) yes he only avg 2.7/3.4 at Texas in a reserve role. Hopefully he can at least make lay-ups. He would have at least provided depth on the front line. Great programs take time.
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