bronson arroyo... honest or worse?
It's hard to question a guy who made 70 starts the previous 2 years and last year threw 240 innings... and who threw 129 pitches in a loss at San Diego this year. But anybody else have an issue with a guy who, in the most important game of the season, asks out after 80 pitches? Arroyo said he was "toast'' after the... 2nd inning? Did he look toasted to you? One run, six innings. Arroyo said he wanted to give it to the bullpen, given the way it was performing lately. Why is that his call?
Other disappointing notes from a doubleheader that got away... overdoing the lefty-right matchups to bench Josh Hamilton for both games... not playing ADunn both games... batting Cantu cleanup... Junior admiring a single off the wall... absolute failure to hit in the clutch...
no blame to the 'pen, which can't be perfect every night... but just a lackluster show from a team that had opened the contention door a crack...
posted by Paul Daugherty at 8:07 AM
27 Comments:
at 9:10 AM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 10:40 AM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 11:22 AM 
Unknown said...
-
-
at 12:31 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 1:06 PM 
Paul Daugherty said...
-
-
at 1:44 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 1:55 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 2:49 PM 
jbench5 said...
-
-
at 4:20 PM 
Paul Daugherty said...
-
-
at 4:58 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 5:31 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 5:43 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 7:04 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 7:49 PM 
Paul Daugherty said...
-
-
at 9:01 PM 
Unknown said...
-
-
at 10:16 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 12:21 AM 
Bomber2Musky said...
-
-
at 12:52 AM 
Phill said...
-
-
at 1:04 AM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 7:18 AM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 10:04 AM 
Dennis said...
-
-
at 12:44 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 1:03 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 1:34 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 6:52 PM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 6:14 AM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
at 10:31 AM 
Anonymous said...
-
-
Post a Comment*worse. arroyo's pitched well for the reds at times since the pena trade but that kind of stuff makes the case that the reds aren't very tough - fair or otherwise.
sitting hamilton both games was a strange decision. guy clearly has everyday ability - maybe all star ability, are we really to believe norris hopper's a better bet against righties than The Natural?
pitchers ask out when they don't have their stuff. it happens. stick to football and golf, you don't understand baseball at all.
The up side is that the delusion is over and we won't be distracted from football this fall.
Doc --
your comment about 162 games proving truth beyond all doubt is dead on. But I don't think you need 162 games. Parcells said the same thing in football, where you only get 16 chances: "You are what you are." If your record says you're 5-7, don't try to BS and say we're better than that...
The 29-19 has been enjoyable, but last night was who the reds have been for nearly five months. Lack of clutch hitting, sloppy play at times, lack of hustle, questionable decisions from the manager....
Hey, 1040: Arroyo didnt say he didnt have his "stuff.'' In fact,he said exactly the opposite. And a wise baseball mind such as yourself must have heard once or twice of pitchers who "battle'' when their stuff stinks. And, occasionally, win. Nope, Arroyo asked out because he was tired... in the 2nd inning. No excuse for that.
If he doesn't ask out after the second, the reds lose by 10 runs. A pitcher knows when he's battling and when he's toast.
Arroyo is one of the most competitive, team-first guys on the team. And a smart pitcher, too. So you really have no basis for calling him a dog.
I promise I've played more baseball than you've seen. But that's what columnists do, act like experts about things they don't know much about.
Playoff teams do not have starting pitchers at the front end of their rotation who ask out of important games after 80 pitches. That is f-ing pathetic.
I hate to say I agree, because I like Arroyo, but no way a starting pitcher gives up the ball once it's given to him, especially when things were going as well as they apparently were for him last night.
I can appreciate the fact that Arroyo apparently has great faith in his teammates, but the simple truth is the manager is supposed to come take the ball, not just go pick it up when the starter drops it.
Especially in a big game like last night's. Can you imagine the bouyancy in the clubhouse if Arroyo had finished eight innings, with everyone knowing he was battling, and the Reds had pulled that one out?
That could have been another "team-defining" moment. Instead, it was a wasted opportunity.
Hey, 1:44... Ain't anonymity grand?
Anon 1:44 must be Krivsky.
So let me get this straight, if I put down some silly nickname, I'm no longer anonymous? Paul, I agree with your post about Arroyo, but the anonymous comment is a bit silly...SoCalRedsFan, Chris
Bronson is a girl, and we'll never get beyond 78 wins with a girl as our #2 starter.
144, 1040:
You think Roger Clemens has asked out of a game? Ever?
How about Curt Schilling?
Arroyo's a nice guy to have on the staff, turns in a good performance more often than he does a bad one, but there's a difference between being "The Man" and being "one of the fellas" Arroyo's one of the fellas. Dont' take it personally.
SoCal Chris... Point is, I put my name (and questionable mug) on everything I write on the blog and in the paper, and say on the radio. It keeps me responsible. I don't have a problem with the blog, per se. I'm flattered that people care enough about what I think to respond. Usually, I value the opinions. But without accountability, people say what they want... too often, it's irresponsible, personal, hurtful and inaccurate. You wouldnt believe the stuff I reject. So, those with the stones to put their real names to their personal attacks are the bloggers I value. Others, I shrug off, and post to show their stupidity. Thanks...PD
Paul,
Why not do what C. Trent has and require all that post to use their blogger identity. Seems to resolved most of the probs there, as well as the fact posts are made instantly, which if not abused makes for a great experience.
Scott Evans
Paul,
The big difference is that you get paid to publicly comment. I think just about any of us would leave our names if we also received compensation for it.
Instead, we have other jobs and, believe it or not, may not want to reveal our personal identity when commenting on current events, even on things as trivial as baseball - who knows our boss could be reading and be a big Arroyo or Dunn fan or even a huge Paul Daugherty fan (plus we don't want anyone to know we read your blog during work!)
Paul,
Glad to see you step up and defense yourself; actually dignifying some of these pointless comments shows some character on your behalf. Although I feel that almost 80 percent of the time you are greatly mistaken regarding the Reds and the Bengals, as a journalist, you're doing your part.
You left an extremely unpleasant taste in my mouth when John Madden held up the Cincinnati Enquire on Monday Night Football (the Bengals MNF Debute after YEARS of being blacked out of the nat'l spotlight) only to find the headline, "PLEASE BOYS, DON'T EMBARRASS US". To me, you represented to the nation an extremely inaccuarate view of what our city had on the Bengals.
Madden was sure to comment on that.
Other than that, the negativity you spout seems to keep people, including myself, interested; it's what makes the world of sports talk go 'round.
On TV they said that Gorzelanny(I probably misspelled that one!) was feeling the same stuff Bronson was.
Also their starter for that game Malholm only pitched 83 pitches.
I don't blame Bronson for saying "listen I got nothing left." Yea toughing it out is great unless of course that means he goes back out gives up a couple long balls and loses the game hisself than entrusting a bullpen that had been recently performing well. Then all we hear is how he let the team down by not just manning up and saying he was out of juice.
In response to anonymous 1040 and 144.
I worked as a reporter covering the Reds for several years. I attended almost every home game and during that time I picked the brains of dozens of players, coaches and managers. I never, ever heard a pitcher say he asked out of a game because he didn't "have his stuff"
I read Doc's columns all the time. He tells the truth, some people don't like the truth. How many more losing seasons does it take 1040 before you believe the truth?
John Lenhoff
THANK YOU Paul for your awesome "rant" on yesterday's sport's talk regarding this post. So bored of watching Griffey admire his "work". Here's a thought: how 'bout once you hit the ball start running. Once you get to the base you've "earned" then watch the replay on the jumbo-tron. I wonder if Griffey realizes how offensive it is to watch him behave this way. Like it or not, he should be setting a better tone for the team - 'specially since he's the "best player".
Per rumors, reports, or whatever....maybe if Arroyo wasn't shutting the bars down every night, he wouldn't be "toast" after barely breaking a sweat (i.e., 2nd inning).
Also, those "rumors" are only exacerbated by his own complaints about having to "wake up" to pitch an afternoon game. What a rough life. I feel terrible for him. Gotta be tough to get a wake up call at 11am to go play a game.
--You think Roger Clemens has asked out of a game? Ever?--
Yes. Among other times most famously in 1986, World Series Game 6 vs. NYM.
PD,
Some good columns and comments from you lately. You seem to be the only one of the Enquirer sports staff who does not worry about offending someone who is making 10-12 million per year.
Arroyo had his contract reworked this year for a two year extension of 25 million. His comment "I will never have to work again". Well Bronson, now is the time you should be working. I tune the Reds out whenever I can. Last night there was a good game on...Yankees vs. Red Sox. The Rocket vs. Beckett. My hero won, at the age of 45. And yeah! Bronson was tired in the second inning the other night...I only hope with this latest run by the Reds that the GM and Owner do not think they have done a good job and do not have much work to do to make this team a winner. They are, after all, in the worst division in baseball.
Arroyo knows he doesn't have his best stuff early in the game, battles through six innings, leaves on his own request with a 2-1 lead. Let's say he starts the 7th, and the Pirates jack a couple of his 74 mph floaters over the wall to take the lead, and after the game Arroyo says "I didn't have my best stuff all night, but I wanted to stay in and battle". Then he's gonna get crapped on for hangin' in when he knew he was done. Dude can't win.
I guess for me the issue isn't that he wanted out of the game. The issue is that he was "toast" so early & so easily. That is not acceptable.
Must agree with Doc. Anonymity sparks cowardly acts from people. Go ahead, feel free to attack someone, but have the marbles down there to sign your name, huh?
Not only did Junior not take second base while admiring his work, he cost the Red's a run on the play when Dunn missed third base. Had he been hustling to the plate, he would have crossed it before Dunn's misstep and his run would have counted.
I have been saying for years that Griffey does not hustle. That is my primary beef with him. All that talent and no hustle. What a shame.
* Our online blogs currently are hosted and operated by a third party, namely, Blogger.com. You are now leaving the Cincinnati.Com website and will be linked to Blogger.com's registration page. The Blogger.com site and its associated services are not controlled by Cincinnati.Com and different terms of use and privacy policy will apply to your use of the Blogger.com site and services.
By proceeding and/or registering with Blogger.com you agree and understand that Cincinnati.Com is not responsible for the Blogger.com site you are about to access or for any service you may use while on the Blogger.com site. << Home