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Paul Daugherty
Enquirer columnist files news and observations

Paul Daugherty
Paul Daugherty has been an Enquirer sports columnist since 1994 and has been chronicling Cincinnati sports since 1988. He has covered almost every major sporting event in America, as well as five Summer Olympics. Along the way, he has been named one of the country's top-5 sports columnists four times, and Ohio columnist of the year on seven different occasions. Last year, he was voted 2nd-best sports columnist in the country, by the Associated Press Sports Editors.

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Tuesday, January 22, 2008

Why are they still messing with Sarasota?

The Sarasota county commissioners will vote in a few hours on whether to keep talking with the Reds about renovations to Ed Smith Stadium. Meantime, the folks in Goodyear, AZ are unspooling a red carpet from Second Street to Sky Harbor Airport.

Seems to me, the decision should be easy.

Florida is pushing teams out. Arizona is welcoming them. Florida towns havent rushed in to fill the potential breach if the Reds leave Sarasota. Goodyear has. In Sarasota, the Reds are willing to pay ($9 mil) to stay in a renovated facility. In Goodyear, they'd get a new place for free.

Easy.

I dont often use this space (or any other) to suck up to the Reds. But the only reason they're even still discussing things with a place that is so obviously ambivalent about their presence is, the organization values its history (Fla. is where they've always trained) and its fans. But at some point, you say enough is enough, thank Sarasota for its time and move west.

Look, I love Sarasota. In March, it's a small slice of paradise. I couldnt care less about Arizona, especially the Phoenix area, which is flat, hot, scorched and ugly. But beyond PR and good feelings, there is no reason for them to stay on the Gulf. Time to move on.


28 Comments:

at 9:55 AM Blogger Allan said...

Paul,

Very unlikely that I would go see the Reds train in Arizona. What is there to do in Goodyear?

Lots to do in Florida.

The question is: why are many Fla towns letting their baseball teams hightail it to AZ?

Do people even care about baseball in FLA? (See Rays, TB and Marlins, FLA) What is fueling this apathy in the sunshine state?

 
at 10:18 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Perhaps a small consideration, but the Reds also have a minor league team in Sarasota & maintain a year-round operation there, if I'm not mistaken. So, there may be other organizational issues to consider, beside spring training.

JB

 
at 10:22 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

"I couldnt care less about Arizona, especially the Phoenix area, which is flat, hot, scorched and ugly."

Spoken like a true Cincinnatian!

Cincinnati = Poor, dying, gasping rustbelt city that is hemorraging its young, creative class.

Phoenix = Booming, dynamic city that is bursting at the seams of prosperity and possibility. One of the fastest growing metro areas in the US.

From someone who now calls Cincy home, nice job.

 
at 11:00 AM Blogger Paul Daugherty said...

Hey, 1022... I didnt say Phoenix wasn't booming, prosperous etc.. neither did I describe the 'Nati as paradise on earth. I just said metro Phoenix is flat, brown and ugly. Which it is. Try to stay on topic.

 
at 11:35 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paul...

Topic was Goodyear vs. Sarasota.

Point is that your opinion that Phoenix is "scorched" and "ugly" doesn't wash with the multitudes (baseball teams included) moving to the Phoenix area every year...

Point is your oposition to a Reds move to Goodyear is very indicative of Cincinnatians, in general, lack of "vision" in regards to change...

In fairness, you really didn't say all that--and honestly, if the move is made, you'll get a kick out of some of the old baseball hangouts (especially in Scottsdale & Mesa) populated with old, retired scribes who talk about the old days of the Cactus League.

 
at 11:53 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Lot's of great golf in Phoenix. I love to play the desert courses such as Wa-Ko-Pah.

 
at 12:32 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Get out much, Paul???

The Valley of the Sun flat???

Phoenix is surrounded by 6 mountain ranges with majectic views of the mountains all around. In fact, the new complex in Goodyear sits at the base of the South Mountins with homeplate facing some amazing views.

 
at 12:53 PM Blogger Paul Daugherty said...

OK, I'm about half brain dead watching online the Sarasota County commissioners talk Reds spring training there to death, so I'll respond again...Phoenix is in a "valley.'' That's why they call the place "Valley'' of the Sun... I have been there many times... have, in fact, been all over the world... I have been to the Supersition Mts outside Phoenix, seen snow on Mt. Lemmon near Tucson, in July... been to Sedona, Flagstaff, Scottsdale, Tempe, Mesa, Peoria, Bisbee, Nogales, Sonoran Desert Museum, Tombstone, Winslow, Biosphere2, that fake ecosystem. Been all over Arizona, OK? And Phoenix proper is, has been and, barring something Biblical, always will be... flat... and brown... and ugly.

 
at 1:10 PM Blogger russ said...

It's nice that the Reds are trying to stay in AZ for the fans, but I thought all the kowtowing to the locals was going to stop under the new ownership. The last time fan influence reared it's ugly head we ended up with a Barry Larkin albatross contract that impaired the team heavily for the next three years.

 
at 1:16 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

at 11:53 AM OpenID vermontdad said...

Lot's of great golf in Phoenix. I love to play the desert courses such as Wa-Ko-Pah.


I've only been in the Phoenix part of Arizona once. Outside of a short drive I figure Paul Daugherty is correct.

My question of you is: Where do they get the water for the golf courses or is Wa-Ko-Pah one of those interesting sand fairway spots?

 
at 1:22 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

"OK, I'm about half brain dead watching online..."

Hey, we agree then!

 
at 1:24 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

at 12:53 PM Blogger Paul Daugherty said...

How's that Keystone working out for you?

 
at 1:26 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paul: Can you tell us how you REALLY feel about Phoenix ????? Other than Sarasota's nostalgia, the southwest is a far better place for the Reds. Floridians don't like baseball any more; they are now into voting machine manufacturing.

 
at 2:03 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Well, with the result today the Reds are much closer to spending future Marches in Arizona. I wish they would stay in sarasota but this is business. What kind of arrogance do you have to have to think you can give a team about half the money they originally desired and think they'll take it? There are other states that offer warm weather in March.

 
at 3:33 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Where does the money come from to pay for these bums to start with? It might be interesting to follow what Brown & Castellini do with your money.

 
at 5:59 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Ahhhhhh...Doc, the last of the great traditionalists. Speaking as someone who grew up with the BRM, I still gag a bit each year when the Reds don't open up the MLB $ea$on first, thanks to the almighty dollar.

I've been living in Florida for the past twenty years now watching the Reds and now their low minors. This is where they belong. Cleveland started the Cactus League...let 'em stay there.

Just wait until the Colorado River runs dry...

 
at 7:22 PM Blogger Scott Evans said...

In 20-30 years when the lease is up on GABP, I can see the Reds moving as the days of corporate welfare for sports teams is over. Moving to Arizona is putting a band-aid on the real problem, finding a spring training home that will be there for years that Reds fans can access by plane or car. Arizona is not that place. In 5-6 years when Goodyear's spring training facility is not up to date the Reds will be looking to move again. The Reds may lose me as a customer if they move to Arizona, especially due to the fact that the Reds chose to move because they couldn't get tax money in Sarasota.

I understand the Reds point of veiw and will admit they have done more than most MLB teams to keep from moving. However I am fundamentally against the tactics of Bud Selig to hold communities hostage for tax money with the threat of losing teams (through moving or contraction). To me the Reds have done a lot but not enough to keep my respect and loyalty, and as a season ticket holder they should care about that.

There is a solution that would create a win-win for everyone. Sarasota sell Ed Smith Stadium and the other properties required to the Reds for $3 million. In exchange the Reds pay 0 property and income taxes for 30 years, the city/county pays to have the stadium ADA compliant before the sale, and the Reds keep all ticket sales and parking. Basically the Reds would own the facility much like other successful companies.

This is what should happen with the Banks as well, the government should sell the land to developers and let private industry work.

Also, the Reds controlling the construction costs of Ed Smith will guarantee it will be completed on time at much lower costs than using government money.

 
at 7:38 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paul, You made good cases for:
1)Cincinnati fans wanting Reds in Sarasota (ambiance, also drivable).
2) Reds management moving to Arizona (money).

Wonder which way that'll go?!

Actually can't blame Bob C. Sarasota obviously doesn't care enough to pony up.

 
at 11:33 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Why do Cincy fans keep saying they won't attend Reds home games during the regular season if they leave FL? I don't get the connection. I grew up in Cincinnati and had a condo on Siesta Key for years, but why tie the two together.

Spring training is a blast, no doubt, but how does the Reds being in Goodyear diminish the regular season in any way? If you don't go to spring training, won't you just want to see the Reds even more during the regular season?

Paul, I agree Phoenix proper is flat and brown, but man they have some great golf courses in the area. Plus desert golf is always fun since most folks don't get to play it that much.

Dave

 
at 9:13 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

All right, Doc, you and Bill Koch can run but you can't hide!

Why haven't one of you supposed friends of Dustin Dow opened up an online "Dustin Dow Blogging Bachelor Party" thread on one of your blogs???

You all don't really like him, do you? Is that it?

Who's bringing the beer?

 
at 12:58 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

Oddball points:

1.Many if not most of the good Arizona courses are geared at the resort level and cost like a bizillion dollars to play in the winter, thereby disqualifying the 'Keystone' class

2. Phoenix has lots of greenery any where they water, but it has some serious smog cuz of the mountains and water availability drives its economy

3. The desert is sparse, iolated, nd brilliantly haunting at night. May be a good place for the Reds to invoke Native American spirits and drive out the Waspis voodoo left over from the rich white man legacies of Marge and Uncle Carl.

4. Pecans trees grow right in your front yard. Bob C. could add them to the fruit and veggie line.

5. Anybody remember the Rosie Reds and their trips to Tampa? Maybe they would transmute into the Friccaiseed Rosies in that lovely desert heat?

6. The whole thing is a non issue to most fans. Very few go to spring training, we get 81 chances a year to see em play here in town. Doesn't matter where they train, since most of us read about it in the paper, which brings us back to why we're here in the first place.

Slow news day, Paul?

 
at 8:12 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I love the way Paul simply dismisses the wonderful Phoenix area as drab. If things were reversed and a team from that area was debating whether to have their spring training in the Cincinnati area or not, the majority of people in Phoenix would probably say "Cincinnati? Where's that?" Look around your own surroundings first folks, before so snidely dismissing someone else's home.

 
at 8:52 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

I can see why the Reds would want to leave Sarasota for "greener" pastures in metro Phoenix, but they wouldn't have anywhere near the support other midwestern teams like the Cubs, White Sox and Brewers have (seeing as how the majority of midwestern transplants living in Phoenix are from Illinois and Wisconsin). H*ll, even the Indians make sense because there's a sizeable population of Cleveland transplants living in Phoenix, for whatever reason.

There aren't, however, very many Ohio transplants living in Phoenix from anywhere south and west of Medina County. I'd reckon most people from Columbus and Cincinnati know parts of Florida (Sarasota, for instance) better than they do their own cities.

And while it would be great to go to a spring training game in March to cheer on my beloved Reds in Goodyear, I figure myself, my father, and possibly the five other people from Cincinnati who somehow ended up in Phoenix would be the only Reds fans showing up to support their hometown team. We would be overwhelmed by the Cubbies, Brewers, Indians and AL and NL Western division teams' fans who'd go to the Goodyear park to support their teams because oddly enough, spring training tickets to places like Mesa's HoHoKam Park (where the Cubbies practice) are ridiculously hard to come by.

The Reds would be gone for even "greener" pastures in five years time as there would be absolutely no support for the Reds in Phoenix, should they actually decide to leave Florida for Arizona.

And while its hard to tell what the weather will be like on a day-to-day basis in places of Florida (and Cincinnati) in the late Winter, the temperature in Phoenix in February and March can be anywhere from 75 to 80 degrees with zero humidity and abundant sunshine. Spring Training is long over before the real heat arrives in The Valley (which comes in late May/early June).

Sorry for such a long rant, the concept of the Reds moving Spring Training to Arizona just bugs me, even as a lifelong Reds fan, and I live in Phoenix.

 
at 1:52 AM Blogger JerBear said...

I agree with oldtimer that it's a non-issue to most of us because we don't go to spring training. I'm not saying you shouldn't cover it Paul, because it's interesting and has to do with our Reds, but I've always thought Spring Training is for the old and retired or those with a fairly healthy salary!

Which brings me to a couple points

1) It's probably a 3.5 hr plane ride to Arizona compared to a 1.5 hr plane ride to Florida. If you're staying for a good amount of time I don' think a few hours is that big of a difference!

2)I love the ocean and beaches, and have been to Long Boat Key near Sarasota. Very nice.

I also was able to travel to Arizona this past summer with some friends and family. Sedona and the Grand Canyon are some of the most beautiful places on planet earth!

Maybe they are a few hours north of Phoenix, but it gives you something else to do besides go to the beach!

3) I played "desert golf" in Tucson last summer. Only had to pay 25 dollars since we were staying in my uncle's condo located at the golf resort! The normal cost was 100-125 a round.

Anyway, after backing into 2 cactus bushes while looking for lost balls I decided playing golf in Arizona is not very fun!

 
at 4:46 PM Blogger oldtimer said...

As usual somebody sez something that triggers a story: in this cast, it's JerBer

seems a friend of mine from around here decided to enter the local qualifier for the Mid Am some years ago. He had captained the golf squad at UK and played a little on the satellite tours before giving it up and getting a real job. Played sparingly but enough to win a couple club championship at an old established club here in town. Lo and behold he qualifies for the MidAm in Arizona in his late thirties.

Decides to call an old teammate at UK who had moved to greener herbal pastures in Oregon, and grown the beard and long hair to match (my kinda jock). Will you be my caddy in the tourney?

Sure.

Oregon has to argue his way onto the grounds first day, no hippies could ever be golfers, right? Much less caddy intelligently. First round goes well, chance at cut.

Second day Local sends Oregon out to forecaddy on a tricky hole with dogleg left. He finds mound, shot comes at funny angle, he slips and tumbles down into cactus patch. Whole tourney stops as ambulance carts Oregon away to have pricklers pulled out at hospital. Local carries own bag, limps home, and obviously misses cut.

And has a story to last a lifetime. I heard it the day he got home. Got bug eyed and busted a gut laughing.

Moral of story: herbally oriented long haired ex college golfers make funny caddies till they fall into the desert. Then they make funny stories.

 
at 8:43 PM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Sounds to me like the Reds are trying their best not to leave Sarasota. If they don't want to leave, why don't they just say so?

Personally, I don't care if they do spring training in Brian Kelly's new bubble, so long as they play better baseball next year.

 
at 10:25 AM Anonymous Anonymous said...

Paul,

To each their own, but I happen to think that Arizona is one of the most amazing places on earth.
The Valley of the Sun is nestled between mountains and the desert climate is amazing.
Great golf, almost never rain issues. Plus if you want to spend some time sightseeing you are just a couple hours drive from some of the world's most incredible terrain. Hiking, boating, skiing and other stuff. Not to mention I like playing a little blackjack on vacation... you can find that there too.
Again if you like humidity, mosquitoes the size of baseballs and gators pick Florida.
To me the debate isn't even close. Arizona is a far better place to be.-EWAD

 
at 12:21 PM Blogger Paul Daugherty said...

EWAD... fair enough... there are parts of AZ I really enjoy... one of the better munis I've played anywhere is in Tucson... but overall, the golf there is overpriced... and again, to me, the desert just isnt attractive... i love the solitude of the Superstitions, though...amazing how quiet true quiet can be... you get that up there... but I'm an East Coast guy... I need green and trees... Phoenix has everything but...

 
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