Paul Daugherty: Bengals and Baker

Monday, October 15, 2007

Bengals and Baker

From the KC Airport, which has free wireless... sorry I can't respond individually to more than 300 emails since yesterday...this post will have to do... Re the Bengals:

Am having horrible Dick LeBeau flashbacks...Lewis came out totally paralyzed in the postgame yesterday...he is unable to reach this team, which has more talent than 4 losses in 5 games and 7 in the last 8... this was a game the Bengals had to win. It followed an embarrassing display at home on MNF... if ever a team had any pride in itself, and showed it in a critical game, this should have been the one... with the playoff-dream portion of the season on the line, they fell behind 27-10 w/8m to play, against a mediocre club that begged them to get back in the game...Lewis responds by saying his team played as a team in the second half... it was a Bruce Coslet moment that should anger every Bengal fan...

As for Baker... I'm an "ass'' according to many, for suggesting part of the anti-Dusty backlash is racial... so be it. Thing is, not one of the hundreds of posters, e-mailers etc. has said anything beyond the standard he-ruins-pitchers and he-coddles-veterans that makes any rational sense... and even the Pitchers and Coddling arguments can be shot down. Baker's the first legit major league manager the Reds have had since McKeon, and all anyone can do is bitch about it. What's wrong with you people?

Again: Who, exactly, would you have chosen? La Russa wasnt coming. Ownership decided against Joe (1 year, 78 wins) Girardi... Brenly? Mackanin? Who? Baker has 1,100 wins, 3 manager of the year awards etc. The overwhelming negativity around here never ceases to amaze... that said, keep those cards and letters coming... it's great conversation and I appreciate it very much.

35 Comments:

at 11:36 AM

Anonymous said...

As I just posted on your other entry, it's not the handling of pitchers/youngsters/stars that's Dusty's biggest problem (though it cannot be overlooked). It's his and his team's complete apathetic approach to everything.....he was clearly there just to collect a paycheck. And that was in Chicago. I can only imagine the lack of urgency/intensity he will have here.

And his rabbit ears/sensitivity to any criticism at all will drive you mad. Wait til you see how defensive he gets. "Hey man, what do you want from me?" "Hey man, give me the horses and I can win the race."

And does anyone care he turned a blind eye to rampant steroid use in his own locker room for a decade???

Just wait Cincinnati. The Dusty Baker era will drive you batty.

at 11:56 AM

Anonymous said...

Paul,

You hit the nail right on the head regarding the Bengals. Marvin lost control and the respect of his team. You don't put a "play-off contending" team into a corner like these Bengals were, give them 2 weeks to prepare for an opponent and be satisfied with this lame effort. How bad are they going to be with zero at stake? We will see this week I guess. Time for a change. Marvin Lewis can only tread the waters of "improvement from the 90's" for so long, because he is clearly over his head and the sharks are starting to circle.

at 12:00 PM

Anonymous said...

Bengals then Reds...

Bengals. I was waiting for the classic Dick LeBeau speech. "Could we have played better? Yes, we could have played better. Are we a better football team? Yes, we are a better football team." I was surprised to see the defense play better in the second half. They actually made adjustments. During the Lost Decade I could laugh at the horrible gameplay. It was actually funny to see the team implode. Now it just hurts.

Reds. Baker ruins pitching staffs? If that is true, then the Resd are in good shape because they don't have a pitching staff to destroy.

at 12:02 PM

Anonymous said...

Keep banging the drum, Doc. You couldn't be more right.

at 12:03 PM

Anonymous said...

Keep banging the drum, Doc. You could not be more right.

at 12:13 PM

Anonymous said...

The front office was right on with Baker. The man was a successful player, has coached major franchises, has won, and has been all the way to the big dance.

Those are pretty awesome credentials in baseball.

You're wrong about being wrong about race, Paul.

The only satisfactory answer for the backlash must INCLUDE some racism as part of the answer.

at 12:47 PM

Anonymous said...

Paul. regarding Dusty, let me preface this by saying I am 45 and have lived in Cinti my entire life except for college years. Also, I am very moderate politically and not a minority. Having said that, I do feel some of the backlash over Dusty is racially motivated. The Marvin Lewis answer to me is shallow because there is a difference between the general makeup of the typical Reds fan locally versus the typical Bengals fan. I am both, and own season tickets for both. I find a typical Reds fan of similar age to be more old fashioned and resistant to change. Maybe its the perceived difference in demographics of the typical fan. Just my honest observation.

at 12:51 PM

Anonymous said...

Look at Marvin's expression, particularly the way his eyes dart around left and right as he is speaking during the post game press conference...It's obvious he doesn't believe a word he is saying and is just fidgeting for the correct thing to say until he can segue out of there...Way to put your foot down and go back to being a disciplinarian Dick, errr, I mean Marvin.

Jamie

at 12:57 PM

Anonymous said...

You hit it right on the head. You are an ass. But admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery so I congratulate you on that.

at 1:02 PM

Unknown said...

I guess I'm lucky to not be there to hear it. Much like you said in your column, tell me it isn't racial. It would make more sense to hate the move because there was a time when Reds fans, including myself, didn't like anything in Dodger blue - but those days are long gone. We've waited a long time to not get another small name and now people are griping about it. Puzzling...

Rus
Harrisburg, NC

at 1:14 PM

Anonymous said...

Paul,
Bringing up the race card now, before Baker coaches his first Red's game, will not insulate you against racism charges next July when you have to critisize him for what the Cincinnati area Cub fans are already warning you about. The "I was for him, before I was against him" mantra will not wash you of your racial insensitivity sins if Baker proves to be a flop. I hope he's the best coach the Reds ever had, but the consensus seems to be going the other way. It would be neat to revist all of the pros & cons comments in the middle of next season.

at 1:30 PM

Anonymous said...

Hey Dusty, glad you're here. I understand Dick Pohl is a long time friend? No offense intended to Mr. Pohl, but instead will you please hire Leo Mazzone first thing? That will get everyone off your back about Prior and Wood.

at 1:40 PM

Anonymous said...

Paul,

I was in the anti-Dusty camp at first, but I'm willing to give him a chance. It would be great if the Reds went to the playoffs again. As to the negativity of Cincinnati fans, there hasn't been much to get excited about in the last 17 years--there are a few exceptions--so fans tend to react with great pessimism.

Ben
Arlington, VA

at 2:16 PM

Anonymous said...

What's wrong with these people? It seems this is the down side of technolgy. Anyone who can type feels they are an instant expert on anything and everything.

But on the other hand,it's nice to know that i can always read some of the "expert" analysis and get a good chuckle.

at 3:12 PM

Anonymous said...

Honestly don't know what people expected. I'll say this, if they talk about this at all outside Cincinnati, it will be in the context of whether or not this was a good move for Baker. That it was a coup for Cincy is a given.

pat w

at 3:59 PM

bodacio said...

Yep. This(been ruined for years) franchise is now suddenly more ruined with the hire of a 3-time manager of the year. Possibly Dusty wasn't the best choice, but those clamoring for Pete Mack seem to have no recollection of the "hire from within" philosophy that shot Cincy baseball right into the dumpster.

Larussa wasn't coming here. Girardi is clearly holding out for a more high profile gig. Brenly won a ring on Schilling and Johnson's back, got booed out of Arizona, and mysteriously hasn't caught on with anyone since. Where is the clear alternative?

PD, you might be the only sane mind in this town.

at 6:52 PM

Unknown said...

Paul,

I like the hire of Baker, he is a top-notch manager. I don't place the Chicago blame on him for Prior and Wood. Each division in the NL have 3 legit contenders. So each division could go either way. Race should not be a part of 2008.

On the Bengals nothing will ever change. I m not a Bengals fan but i do watch them on sunday. I think it is time for Marvin to go and Ocho Stinko should be right behind, maybe for a DT LB or DB. Injuries are no excuse, this team is simply not deep enough and not ready for each game. This is not a upper echelon organization i.e Patriots Colts Steelers...They consistently win in the NFL. They might have one down year but they always seem to bounce back. Bengals enjoy your below averageness.

By the way i enjoy your columns and blogs....Go Bucks

at 8:50 PM

Anonymous said...

I love Dusty and you are 100% right. Hurray for Paul and hurray for Dusty. Boo for Marvin and the embarrassing Bungles.

at 8:53 PM

Tampa Red said...

Typical liberal writer. One can't criticize the selection of Baker without it having racial overtones.

Sheesh, it's no wonder no one trusts or respects the media any more.

Oh, and for the record, I LOVE the hire of Baker.

at 9:42 PM

Anonymous said...

Doc - Good to see you're still at the sharp end of the lance....Who knows if anti Bakers have a racial bias. I think it's pretty exciting. Lord knows the Reds have done so little to rscite anyone in YEARS. Shows to me ownership is serious. If some guys follow him here, all the better. As far as Lewis, he's now lost all of the momentum built up in 2005. Sad. The excitement of the Bengals energized the city. A shame to see it gone by Halloween. Seems like old times, eh? Could be worse for him. He could be Bill Callahan...As always, keep up the good work. Your columns & blog remain an important touchstone to home for your me, your "Omaha connection"

Dave M.

at 11:00 PM

Anonymous said...

If there is any racial component to the opposition to the hiring of Dusty Baker I think it stems from the fact that he made a stupid racial comment and got a pass on it. The same comment made by a white manager would have been a career killer, with pronouncements of faux-outrage from media types and professional grievance mongers. With that being said, I think it was a good hire. Dusty's gotten nothing but positive reviews from baseball people in this town who's opinions I respect.

at 11:24 PM

Anonymous said...

Paul

I have to admit that I was ready to go through the roof when the said "Dusty Baker". I can not tell you why , but I can tell you what I thought. First i thought did we hire him because he is black? Second did we hire him because... and that is as far as I went. Besides the racial comments I did not know anything about Dusty Baker. I have listened to talk shows all day read everything about this guy that I could find on the internet and I have to say one thing he is a winner. I think this guy can win here. I think Brantley standing up for him means a lot , at least to me. I respect Brantley he kind of a Cincinnati type guy. I think Jeff would tell it like it is. I do not want another band aid no more promise that can not be kept. I feel for the first time Bob is proving he wants to win. I think we are going to have one hell of a year next year. I would ask all Reds fan to give this guy a shot, I think we can win. At least he is a Base Ball Guy. Someone had to say it. LOL
Thanks
Chris

at 11:28 PM

Anonymous said...

Let me be one who applauds the Reds in hiring a high profile coach like Dusty Baker. This franchise needed a major shake-up and hiring Baker is one move that could be the right move. Time will tell of course, but retaining Mackalin would've been just more of the same, and we've seen that for the last 7 years.

As to the Bengals, the "Marvin for Mayor" honeymoon is officially over. I'll be interested to see what kind of reception he gets at the Jets game on Sunday (I'll be at the game). I expect boos, and frankly they are deserved. This team is getting out-coached at every game, regardless of the many injuries. The offense, with the core guys of Palmer, TJ and Chad, should be firing on all points yet it's not happening. The coaching has to take responsibility for that....

Paul in Blue Ash

at 12:57 AM

Bomber2Musky said...

Hey Paul, you're hitting the nail on the head; seems like Marvin Lewis is losing control of this team. However, I saw a piece on Monday Night Countdown tonight that really confused me. Ditka and Parcells went on a verbal rampage regarding Chad Johnson. They called him a "cancer" and said he's the selfishness that is plaguing the team.

You know this guy, what in the hell are they talking about? The reason the Bengals are in ruins right now is because of their allstar receiver? The guys who continually puts up numbers, is the most in-tune with the city itself, and flat out loves this game of football?

He has thrown no one under the bus, has not bad-mouthed Marvin, and takes responsibility when he rightfully should; what the hell are these people talking about? It baffles me to hear crap like this. T.O. has literally ruined team chemistry by running his mouth to the media regarding his teammates and coaches...when has Chad ever once done anything remotely close to that? Are we being serious here? Someone clarify, because I am beyond stunned.

at 6:56 AM

Allan said...

Paul - great comment.

Been a Bengals and Reds fan for all my life, but left Cincy when I was 22.

Every time I come back to town, I try to get to a Reds/Bengals game. What I hear at the games is a lot of whining and complaining, but little substance. These are not the fans I grew up with - fans who knew the game, and didn't just come for the free bobbleheads or the club seats. Fans hearts should break when the team consistently loses - I don't think that happens anymore because of the consolation prizes you get at the game. Maybe that's what ownership wants.

Cincinnati needs a winner - soon. It's not going to happen when a lot of fans act the way they do right now.

I like Baker as a manager - can he make the pitching staff better?

I'm fed up with Lewis' nonsense this year as a coach. He should be flat out embarrassed to be compared to Coslet/Lebeau, as that was an image he dispelled when he showed up in 2003.

It's tough to wear a Reds cap/Bengals jersey these days. I want my teams to win.

at 8:37 AM

Bengalsin-NY said...

The bengals have been put on a pedestal for the past few years based on individual talent and easy scheduling. They were great before they were good.
Dan Maher

at 9:04 AM

Anonymous said...

Paul, someone alluded to this early in the comments but was more diplomatic than I would be. Regarding Dusty, I think the backlash is somewhat racially motivated and people can't use the Marvin Lewis answer because there is a difference in economic class between many Reds and Bengals fans and many more Reds fans are old-fashioned and resistant to change.

at 11:19 AM

Anonymous said...

Paul Daugherty, a liberal writer!? You must have hit a nerve Doc. I'm about as conservative as they come and I just don't see a liberal bias in Doc's opinions. Race absolutely played a part in some of the criticism over the hiring of Dusty Baker, make no mistake about that. That's not to say that everyone who is opposed to this hiring is a racist,they're not, but some are, and they attempt to camouflage it as something else.

at 12:18 PM

Anonymous said...

Mr. Daugherty, why do you stay in Cincinnati??? I stay here because its the best job available for me, but like you, I don't much like Cincinnati either.

It's so obvioius that 1.) You aren't really a sports fan any longer, and 2.) You really don't like Cincinnati sports fans very much based on your constant dismissiveness of them.

Hey, I agree with you, but just wondering if this is the best gig you have too???

at 12:25 PM

Anonymous said...

I imagine many of the vehement Baker protestors are also proponents and apologists of Pete Rose ( player, manager, gambler,criminal).

at 1:30 PM

Anonymous said...

12:18 Anon,
What in the world are you talking about?

at 7:00 PM

Anonymous said...

"PD doesn't like Cincinnati & is only here because it's his best option?"
I don't see that at all.

He asked us all "what are the best things about Cincinnati" & got great responses.

He points out some of the stupid stuff our sports teams do - that's his job & I look forward to it every week.

I suspect, if he wanted, he could easily get a better paying gig with a big city paper - he's good enough.

Disclosure - I'm not sucking up - note that I'm anon.

at 6:53 AM

Paul Daugherty said...

Hey, 12:18...For what it's worth: I came here in '88 from New York... I was offered jobs twice at the LATimes and turned them down. Interviewed for a column job in Chicago several years ago that went to Rick Telander, a terrific writer. Point is, options have been available. Love living here and, yes, I do get frustrated generally w/our acceptance of mediocrity in all things, not just sports. It's as if we're too afraid to try to be great. We're safe, conservative, predictable. It makes for a safe, conservative, predictable place to live, which both comforts and enrages me. Perfect example was where we put GABP... safe, conservative, predictable: And dull. Imagine how different things could have been had we been bold at Broadway Commons. But that's us. Long answer to short question. I criticize because I care.

at 9:55 AM

Anonymous said...

I like Dusty Baker but the criticism I have seen does not seem like racism to me. There have always been very specific reasons given...Prior and Wood, enabling Bonds, and favoring over-the-hill vets to name a few.

Does someone have a specific example of fans saying they don't like him because of his race? This reminds me of the McNabb comments when he claimed there was racism but had no evidence and no other quarterbacks to back him up.

at 3:25 PM

Anonymous said...

Not sure if anyone cares about this thread anymore, but I've been out of town & this is my 1st chance to comment...

The following quote from Dusty Baker, in early 2004 concerns me:
"I think walks are overrated unless you can run, if you get a walk and put the pitcher in a stretch, that helps, but the guy who walks and can't run, most of the time he's clogging up the bases for somebody who can run. Who have been the champions the last seven, eight years? Have you ever heard the Yankees talk about on-base percentage and walks?"

Actually, the Yankees do talk about walks & OBP and generally fare quite well in those areas, but the rest of what Dusty said is the problem. It seems to show a basic lack of understanding of how runs are created. This in turn could affect who plays, lineup composition & in-game strategy.

One of the benefits of being patient & drawing walks is that it runs up the starter's pitch count & theoretically you get into their bullpen sooner. Of course, given Dusty's apparent lack of concern about his own pitcher's pitch counts, it is doubtful he cares about this either.

Overall, I'd give the hire a B-, though I might prefer Pete McKanin at $1 million & use the savings to get a reliever.

John Burroughs
Hyde Park

Previous Posts

Monday, October 15, 2007

Bengals and Baker

35 Comments: