Paul Daugherty: Payroll Schmayroll

Friday, October 12, 2007

Payroll Schmayroll

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playoffs2007/columns/story?columnist=stark_jayson&id=3057346

Very good reason why Reds cant hide beneath the small-market skirt anymore... if you're smart, resourceful and work a good plan, you too can reinvent your team on the fly... the Indians have done it twice, while never reaching the depths the Reds have.

18 Comments:

at 8:37 AM

Anonymous said...

This should be required reading before anyone starts talking about a bigger payroll and big name managers.

at 9:31 AM

Anonymous said...

Paul
The other thing the final four tells us is that you don't need a "name" manager to succeed. None of these 4 managers had done anything noteworthy as managers before coming to their current teams. Unfortunately, the answer is probably to unload Griffey's salary somehow and invest in some relief pitchers who provide relief.

at 10:15 AM

Anonymous said...

Doc --

that's a great article, thanks for the link. The common denominator on all of those teams, I think, is no high priced veterans with giant contracts, which not only uses money that could be spent on pitching, it also takes playing time away from kids who could be developed.

In the Reds' case -- we of course had our own version of these teams, in the '99 Reds, a bunch of young kids playing together as a team. Bowden said at that time a small-market team winning like that was "an aberration" in the system.

Oakland and the Twins have proven for years you can win without big payroll, through home-grown talent and good money-ball style management. As long as the Reds have Griffey's contract, their "plan" will always be questioned.

at 10:59 AM

Anonymous said...

Paul. you are right, but only tell half the story. Cleveland, Colorado, and Arizona are having a nice 50 mil run, and more power to them. However, these players do not stay at the same salary, service time and age very long. Maybe these teams will be able to stay winners for a few years, but if they do they will significantly have to increase payroll in 2, 3, and 4 years and beyond. They have all done things the right way, but it just doesn't stay that way very long. It just means if they are to continue, they will have to adjust accordingly. These teams are not without a couple of high priced veterans of their own. It just comes down to timing of how and when to plug in the young players, and that all important thing of drafting and developing the right young guys in the first place.

at 11:06 AM

Anonymous said...

nice to see 3 of these 4 teams in there. Lets see what happens in a couple years though, when these same guys are making more money, and these teams will have to decide to pay them more or retool. These things tend to be cyclical with these markets, unless you are the Reds, where you never have enough good young talent at the same time.

at 11:56 AM

Anonymous said...

It's beyond time to let Junior go - and no one will be sadder for it. Not that anyone will be happy about it either - it's just time for him to go. And I think he would welcome a new start too - maybe back in Seattle.

As for Doc's idea about bringing in a president to work with (over?) Krivsky, sounds like a good idea - except for one thing - how would Krivsky feel about it? My hunch? Not so good.

at 12:46 PM

Anonymous said...

Your link makes me wonder, PD. In not too many years those Diamondback and Rockies squads will all be making big bucks, so those teams will lose those players or have to accept a huge payroll.

Where will the players go if the clubs cannot afford them? To teams that can pay big salaries. At that time, the big salary teams will have some winning ways, and everyone will again be saying "big payroll makes the difference."

It sounds like it might be cyclic. If some team manages to gather a critical mass of great young talent before the big salaries hit, then they will win as long as they can afford to keep those guys.

The Reds do have a large reservoir of young talent. Maybe lightning can strike here, too.

But, PD, wouldn't that argue for dumping BOTH Dunn & Griffey?

at 1:05 PM

jtneuge said...

How many years in a row have the Indians made the playoffs? How about the Rockies? The Diamondbacks? Truth is, more than likely, none of these teams will be back in the playoffs next year, at least one of them won't even compete. However I'd bet money that the Yankees, Red Sox, Angels, and Mets all compete for a playoff spot. Just because a couple teams with small payrolls make the playoffs one year doesn't mean you can consistently compete with a small payroll.

Maybe the Reds will catch fire and win the division and make some noise in the playoffs next year. But if they always have a small payroll, they won't be able to make it to the playoffs year after year.

at 2:29 PM

Anonymous said...

Baseball needs a salary cap and revenue sharing in the same fashion as the NFL and NBA.

The Reds will never be able to consistently compete until they spend at a level consistent with the rest of their division. They must spend as much as St. Louis, Chicago & Houston. Look at Houston -- it cut payroll -- and the team stunk this year. Though the Reds increased payroll, they were still well behind Chicago -- never a chance to compete with Chicago.

The Indians do well b/c most of their division does not spend that much & they spend comparable to their division. Also, the Indians will have to increase payroll to maintain their roster now that they are in the playoffs.

In the late 1990s, they were at 95M when, year after year, they made the playoffs and had to increase payroll. They cut loose Thome, Ramirez, and Colon, for example, because they could no longer afford them -- cheap ownership -- not some grand plan. Their payroll would have had go well over 100M. That is why John Hart quit the Indians in 2001. The Indians are back in the playoffs, but to make it a continual thing, they will need to be back in the 90M range again... I lived in Cleveland from 1992 - 2002.

at 3:13 PM

Anonymous said...

Hey Kevin, its easy to say let this guy or that guy go. Its just not as basic as that. Arizona has Randy Johnson making big bucks without any contribution this year, and they overcame it. Colorado has Todd Helton making huge bucks and his production is WAY down from years past. I would like to see Jr. off the books and on a team with a real chance to win, but what would all of these other people have to complain about when that happens and the Reds are little or no better because of all of their other shortcomings.

at 3:30 PM

Anonymous said...

And dont forget the Minnesota Twins. They have done well with a small market team.

Doc, I wish Cleveland well in the playoffs, but probably won't be watching much. I hope Cleveland and Colorado play int he World Series and that during game 3-4-5 in Denver - there is 20 inches of snow.

When I was a kid the world series was over by about this date, Oct 12.
-----------------------------------

at 3:56 PM

Paul Daugherty said...

I assumed everyone knew that teams like those in Stark's piece need to spend to sustain...

at 4:11 PM

Anonymous said...

someone kind of alluded to it earlier, but the whole point of this as it relates to the Reds is that they never have enough good young players of their own at the same time because they never seem to draft and develop enough of the RIGHT players to succeed.

at 4:31 PM

Anonymous said...

Paul, if we all do in fact realize that you have to pay to sustain, then how do the Reds get to step 1 in the first place. There seems to be this naive assumption that just because someone is young and wearing a Reds uniform that they will succeed. I for one would love to know more about the Reds drafting and scouting practices as they compare to other teams.

at 1:12 AM

Anonymous said...

Hey fellas baseball season is over....well for the Reds anyway. For the life of me I can't figure out why you're still talking about baseball.

at 1:59 PM

Anonymous said...

paul-

totally off topic here and i don't want to hijack the thread but what is wrong with your boy jeff ruby and why hasn't he written the check to CPS for the uniforms at taft like he pledged?

There is an anonymous donor who is going to cover the amount left over after ruby's gift but since CPS cant get the check from ruby they can't tell him how much to write it for.

Give him a call and let him know that writing the check is more important than making sure he gets the headlines in the paper and on your radio show

at 6:19 PM

Nathan said...

I think some of you are missing the point. The key to success for small market teams is to make the most of your farm system and young players. Sure, they eventually are no longer affordable, but that doesn't mean they are irreplacable. The Indians don't have Bartolo Colon any more, for instance. You have to have the farm system and other smart moves to handle those losses. The Reds have been SEVERLY lacking in that area.

at 11:33 AM

Anonymous said...

Kurk has it right on the button:

Griffey has to go--free up the money for PITCHING. If you run the numbers, you will find that Griffey is one of the worst values in MLB in terms of $/run produced (in his career with the Reds). He has a future as a DH. But, for the sake of the franchise, don't go out and buy marquee names with that cash thinking you can fill the seats--we don't want to turn into the Texas Rangers with nothing but "A-Rod" again. Get some young talent, and concentrate on the young pitchers.

Atlanta proved that you can hit anemically, but if you pitch well, you win....

You can dump Dunn while you're at it...

Previous Posts

Friday, October 12, 2007

Payroll Schmayroll

18 Comments: