Reds: Change the Message
I said this last night, on WLW Extra Innings: It's time for Bob Castellini and W. Krivsky to change the message. Cut the pretense of contending, plead for patience, say you were wrong about no 5-year plans but not wrong about bringing championship baseball back to Cincinnati. Suggest that expensive veterans are expendable, for decent replacements and good prospects. BRING UP HOMER BAILEY. And Phil Dumatrait... tell the fans it's going to take awhile.. point to the big success of the lower minor league teams...
assume your fans are sophisticated, and Get It.
Either that, or continue insulting everyone's intelligence by running Mike Stanton out there.
This is going to be Topic A again tonight after the game, and likely a column in the Enquirer. Input welcome.
posted by Paul Daugherty at 2:34 PM
23 Comments:
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denisofa said...
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Post a Comment*Agreed.
The Reds need to cut dead weight like Stanton ASAP. The message should be that if you're a veteran and can't get the job done, we can replace you with someone cheaper who might get the job done.
Dunn and Milton should go too(though Dunn should be traded). Milton's salary is a sunk cost, and a good lesson about not listening to players when signing free-agents. I still think that Lohse can get it together, but that Coffey needs to go back to Louisville to get his head on straight.
I am all for Bailey and Dumatrait coming up right now. The sooner they get a chance, the better.
Take the approach Cleveland took 6-7 years ago when the traded all the high-priced talent for prospects.
Hey, we can't compete right now -- but we've got some studs in the minors who we are going to give some major league experience too and hope our core players are mature enough in 3-4 years so that we can compete. In the meantime, we just traded for a bunch of prospects who will be a key part of this team in the future.
Cleveland brought up Sizemore, Peralta, Martinez, Coco Crisp all before they were ready for the major leagues...but that experience is invaluable and helped turn them into the ballclub they are today.
Doc, did you listen to your own interview with Majewski when you asked him if Homer is ready for the Reds?
Gary's response was, no, he needs to refine his breaking ball yet.
Even Larry Barton, who had not much good to say about Kriv on his way out the Reds door, was quoted in the paper agreeing with Kriv that Homer didn't need to be up here yet.
Let's put itthis way...I've been to 4 games this year. Last year I attended 20+. I have yet to purchase a ticket with my own money...and am not about to - to watch this group. I would however, pay to watch Homer pitch.
Do they want 16,000- coming to games or what?
It really does not matter if the Reds have good young players to bring up. If they do, and those players perform well in MLB, then their salary demands will increase and the Reds will trade them for more below average relief pitchers.
That's the way the Reds do things.
If the Reds can't pony up the money to be a player in MLB, perhaps they should consider becoming a AAA franchise? The stadium is not much larger or better than many AAA stadiums now anyway.
And I'm only half-joking.
7:11 AM - What good players were traded for "below average relief pitchers"? If you're referring to Kearns and Lopez, those guys are average (at best).
Trading Germano for a below average relieve pitcher may be the biggest blunder of the Kriv era. He wasn't expensive though. That was a horrible trade by Kriv.
Paul:
Does your job stink when all the local sports endeavors tank? This is an honest question--I sometimes think sports reporters get more jollies out of reporting misery than success.
With the Reds...DEAD, the Bengals...drowning, college football...nonexistent, college basketball...destroyed (save XU)--do you ever get the hankering for another burg?
Just curious!
The good thing about the Reds lousy play is it allows you to make moves you wouldn't otherwise do - like get rid of Stanton.
As of Wednesday morning this was true:
The Curse of the "R"s
Eighteen and twenty-eight,
records shared by Royals, Rangers & Reds*;
Tis a bad time to be an "R" team,
someone should call the Feds.
__
* - Rockies are at 19-27, Rays at 18-26.
I didn't know that Bailey could field, move the runners over when needed, steal bases, and rarely strikes out.
Bailey's not the answer. He's not ready to pitch and he isn't going to solve the problem.
Agree 100 percent, Paul. I will NOT pay to see Milton or Lohse pitch. I WOULD pay to see Bailey pitch (and probably Dumatrait and Livingston as well). This notion that the youngsters have to be completely refined pitchers before they get to the majors is silly. They can learn up here just as well as they can learn down there.
And trade Griff and Dunn while they're playing reasonably well and still have some market value. They'll have no value once Griff has his annual injury and Dunn does his end-of-the-year swoon.
I am tired of everyone saying that Homer and Dumatrait aren't ready. Does it look like Stanton, Lohse, and/or Milton are ready? Can Dick Pole not teach the young pitchers the same things they are learning in Louisville while they gain experience here. Why not get the growing pains out of the way since this year is already lost?
Hey, 850 am... I spent 12 years watching the Bengals play the way the Reds have since last August... I think I can hold on a little longer...
This all sounds like a great idea, until one considers that the Reds did this in 2003:
July 30, 2003: Traded Scott Williamson to the Boston Red Sox. Received Phil Dumatrait (minors). Traded Jose Guillen to the Oakland Athletics. Received Aaron Harang, Joe Valentine, and Jeff Bruksch (minors).
July 31, 2003: Traded Aaron Boone to the New York Yankees. Received Brandon Claussen, Charlie Manning (minors), and cash. Sent Gabe White to the New York Yankees as part of a conditional deal.
August 12, 2003: Traded Kent Mercker to the Atlanta Braves. Received a player to be named later. The Atlanta Braves sent Matt Belisle (August 14, 2003) to the Cincinnati Reds to complete the trade.
August 21, 2003: Traded Scott Sullivan to the Chicago White Sox. Received Tim Hummel and cash.
August 31, 2003: Traded Kelly Stinnett to the Philadelphia Phillies. Received Eric Valent.
I mean, can a franchise realistically do this every 3-5 years and hope to maintain a fanbase, especially in a town as fiery as Cincy?
At what point will MLB realize that "small market" teams simply can't compete with "large market" teams. When was the last time a large market team had to have two fire sales in five years?
I quite agree.
Although I don't know why Jerry Narron continues to tempt fate by bringing in Make Stanton in the eight with a tie/lead.
Kingseyeland... Reds are small money; regional market is medium sized... Smalls and miediums have actually been v. competitive -- Twins, As, Cards, Tigers, Indians, even Marlins, where they have zero support and tiny payroll... must be smart and aggressive and scout well...
What needs to happen is this: get rid of Adam Dunn. Trade him to any team willing to give up anything. He's costing the Reds on both offense and in the field. I often think Reds fans are ignorant when they think Dunn is a good player just because he can hit a solo homerun once every 14 strikeouts. His defense is a joke and his offense is barely better. There's a reason that he's setting strikout records: no one else has ever had a chance to be this bad for so long. I'd much rather have another hitter like Scott Hatteberg in Dunn's slot; someone who actually shows an effort to move runners and understands situational hitting.
At this point is seems their only option is to re-build, but it will be a tough sale to reds fans.
It seems this team is always "re-building." For years we were told that they were re-building to put a competitive team on the field for the new stadium in 03. Then in 03 when they were anything but competitive we had a fire sale and were told they are re-building again. Here we are 4 years later and now we have to re-build. This team seems to be in a constant state of rebuilding.
So here we go again, lets rebuild so in a couple of years we can be a team that is on the cusp of 500. Can't wait.
With the exception of the brief breath of fresh air in 1999-2000, this team has been losing since 1996.
After 11 years of losing, I have no patience for another 5 years.
Even if it is outrageously expensive, get whoever you need to win now while the promising minor leaguers develop.
The Reds get zero money from me, or support, until winning begins.
No more rebuilding, no more promises, no more hopes, just winning.
Until then--I'll find something else to do or another team to follow (one that sees 85 wins as a disappointing season!)
I had high hopes when the Reds got a new owner and it looked like they were trying to win last year. But now? I watched the off-season as all the great free agents went elsewhere, and I saw the writing on the wall.
Look, this guy is a Billionaire. He could field a competitive team if he wanted to. He chooses not to invest in star free agents so the Reds, instead of improving, slipped back to sub-mediocrity and may be the worst in the league.
I agree with the people who said they will pay when the team starts winning. Until then, nothing they can say or do, matters.
Sometimes complete failure can be good for the long term. I'd rather Lohse lose 6 in a row now than after he signed his Miltonesque contract. I like Krivsky, but we need to develop and sign and acquire players that belong on a MLB 25 man roster, not has-beens and never-will-be's. Its not all Narrons fault, but the beauty of baseball is over 162 games, there are no flukes. I disagree with Castellini saying we're better than our record. No we arent! We got about 10 guys that dont belong in pro baseball. The longer you pretend that isnt real, the longer you delay the solution! Griffey came up as a rookie from A ball, skipping AA and AAA. DId he set the world on fire his rookie year? Not really, decent numbers but it set the stage for him taking off by age 22. I agree with this notion of bringing up your core and letting the fanbase watch them develop. Can it be worse? Look at the Detroit Tigers. They were abysmal 3 years ago. I will pay money to watch Votto/Dumatrait/Bailey/ Phillips/Livingston. Give the young pitchers a chance. Anyone miss Tony Womack? Did we cut bait on Jimmy Haynes too quick? Where's Dave Williams when you need him? Go get a catcher and a third baseman as Milton/Dunn/Griffey's contracts take 40 million off the payroll in the next few years. Miguel Cabrera would hit 60 HR playing 3b at GABP. Pay him. I wont go to a Reds game where Eric Milton is the starter. Does anyone else look at the starter before they purchase tickets?
Hey PAul, judging by the response ,apathy has not set in for Reds fans. There is a diehard core fanbase here and its sad we cant get a winner.
Change the message. Or change the GM who is giving the message.
Paul, this team was built around this ballpark. We have way too many guys swingin from their heels most of the time! Especially when they get behind, which is most of the time here of late. They need more contact hitters and situational hitter, like Hatteburg, Conine, etc. only younger if possible. The homeruns will come in this park, but ever since they started playing there, its been like this! Think it's only a coincidence that their record of losing has started since they moved into that park? Its time to start trading some of these dead- weights and bring up the kids. Dunn, Hatteburg, Conine, Griffey, Encarnacian(Willie Greene in disguise!), Milton, Loshe, Stanton all need to go NOW!
Hi Doc, a few comments from your friend Denis in MD. The Reds have not even broken even in the veterans for prospects exchange system. This strategy ruins seasons and merely mirrors the success rate of minor leaguers achieving success at the major league level. When the loss of an established major leaguer is factored in, the outcome is even worse. I agree with patience, as player development is the recipe for a winner in small and mid market franchises.
As for Jim Bowden, he's well thought of here in DC by the Nat's fans.
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